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[aprssig] Dynamic Paths (WAS: Worst Path of the Day)

Christensen, Eric CHRISTENSENE at MAIL.ECU.EDU
Wed Oct 27 00:34:48 UTC 2004


You know, I would support software being able to dynamically set the
path of users to keep them within their Aloha circle.  Packet/APRS won't
work better during an emergency and it would be false-hope to try to
send messages further than your Aloha circle so throw the excuse out
that you may need to use a longer path.

User education goes a long way, I agree, but I had to bang my head
against the desk when my friend said he tried to send me a message over
RF from North Carolina to Maryland/DC area using WIDE7-7 and WIDE8-8.
This is a friend that KNOWS BETTER, or so I thought!  BTW, I never got
any of those messages, so just because you are running those long paths
doesn't necessarily increase your chances of being gated into an I-Gate
or contacting another station.

Eric KF4OTN

-----Original Message-----
From: aprssig-bounces at lists.tapr.org
[mailto:aprssig-bounces at lists.tapr.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 20:09
To: aprs at kd4rdb.com; aprssig at lists.tapr.org
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Worst Path of the Day


Wes, I agree completely.  Thanks for the reminders of the 
LANn-N and LINKn-N solutions!  THey work well and they
are under local control!   And yes, you can see
someone's path on the D700, just hit P.MON to see the
raw packets.

>>> aprs at kd4rdb.com 10/26/04 7:47:14 PM >>>
I know this will stir up a whole mess in the proverbial "pot", but here
goes...

Bob, your idea of self policing is great to an extent.  I don't like
"big brother" restricting my packets, and I know your philosophy well
enough to know that you/we/me don't want the network to stop me from
doing something I _may_ need to do in the event of an emergency.  I
agree with this completely.

BUT... (hey, there's always a but in there)

I fear APRS will suffer the same fate as the PBBS systems did 10 years
ago when they collapsed on themselves sending those darned "for sale"
messages to allusa.  There was so much QRM on the bbs frequencies,
especially in the rual areas with the userport on the same frequency as
the bbs forwarding port that the users couldn't get in.  The result was
the users quit using the system, and all that was left was a hollow
shell of FORSALE messages.  It's like a black hole... the more popular
it becomes, the more crowded it gets, the more aggrivating it gets.
Next thing you know, it collapses on itself.  I don't want to see APRS
suffer that same fate.

My point is that while I agree with having the freedom to use any path I
can dream up, I also see the result... packets originating from stations
who cannot be reached to ask them to make a correction - or stations
such as ww1r/nc4cv in NC who _wouldn't_ make a change.  This puts the
local digi op's in a position of having to restrict access to the local
digi's by the offending stations. 
Here in Sumter SC, the local digi won't digipeat you on RF if you have
more than 3 hops in your path.  This is done with javaaprs, but on a
KPC3 type digi, the only option is to bud list the offenders.  I really
hate to do that because when they find out they've been budlisted, they
get angry at the digiowners. 
But as a digi owner, I've gotta do something to control the network for
the good of all.  But alas, I don't think budlisting is the answer, and
java aprs requires a PC to run which I do not expect most digi operators
will want to install at their sites.  Also, when you budlist someone for
running a crazy path, then they respond by using even worse paths like
RELAY RELAY RELAY RELAY and running enough power to reach a home
stations who hasn't budlisted him.

I think the two real solutions we have at hand are:
1)LANn-n implemented on a state by state basis.  SCn-n, VAn-n, NCn-n,
and GAn-n are active in some/most areas of these states.  Eventually,
when these LANn-n systems are widespread enough, we'll shut off WIDEn-n
in areas picareously over burdened already... just as people in L.A.
have shut off RELAY.  I also realize that this has the downside of
looking like a tower of babble, where travelers must know specifics of
the areas they visit in order to access the network.  A simple path of
WIDE,WIDE would have to remain universal.  I sure wish the kenwood d700
and d7a(g) would show the path information... users of these radios
don't stand a chance of learning the local customary paths.

2)Alt-input digi's.... these give the mobiles a fair chance to get into
the network when they don't stand a chance otherwise due to hidden
transmitter problems caused by 100's of out of town packets streaming
into the local area. This is the equivalent of putting the userport on a
different frequency than the forwarding port in the PBBS example above.
The users, of course, still listen on the forwarding port frequency.

Just my thoughts... and Bob, pse don't take offense, I'm not picking on
you!

Wes

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