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> Subject: Re: [aprssig] Transmitting data to a hot

Ray McKnight shortsheep at worldnet.att.net
Wed Oct 19 20:40:21 UTC 2005

First, I don't know how the "hot air balloon" thread got
mixed up with the "worldwind Sirrus airplane tour" thread.

This has nothing to do with "who is the intended recipient".
I *does* have everything to do with the licensee's responsibilities
in regard to
A) control operator
B) preventing unauthorized transmissions

The transmission is obviously permitted.
What I fiercely protest is providing a transmitter to a unlicensed
individual, ESPECIALLY when you damn well know they will be
trekking all over the country.  And clearly too far away for the control
operator to access the equipment if necessary.  The control operator has a
to have access to his equipment and for the CONTROL OPERATOR
to effect termination of transmissions if necessary.  The whole crux of
the arguement lies in whether the control operator feels they are complying
with this requirement by using the "3rd party method" of control operation -
that is to call the unlicensed people who have possession of the tracker
maybe on a cell phone, marine or aircraft radio, whetever, and merely
tell them to turn it off.  My point is that the responsibilities of control
CANNOT be delegated to an unlicensed individual.  I don't care that the
final result is that the transmitter gets shut down, in my opinion that job
with the control operator, no one else. All your friends have to do is
you, or be outside radio range, or whatever, and now your ability to shut
it off is lost.  The important thing here is that NO ONE ELSE other than
you the control operator has any responsibilities, and its YOU that will
get the fine, suspension or go to jail (most extreme case, but possible).

There used to be wording in the regulations and also in various
such as ARRL operating guides, that discussed the physical control of
your transmitting equipment.  How you should prevent access to it, to
prevent unlicensed people from making unauthorized transmissions.  These
methods were mainly physical security, such as fences and locks for
removing fuses, battery connections and microphones when you took you
car in for repairs, etc.  This seems to have fallen by the wayside - WHY?

And don't overlook the rest of the control operator regulations that
prohibit 3rd party traffic from stations operating under automatic control,
for automatically repeated digital transmission.  Many seem to feel this
trackers to be placed in the hands of unlicensed people, but I feel this is
a serious
error and misinterpretation.  A tracker is INITIATING a transmission, not
relaying it.  This whole part merely allows digipeaters to do their thing,
allows us IF WE CHOOSE TO as control operator to IGate unauthenticated
traffic onto RF.  It has nothing to do with a tracker INITIATING a
on behalf of a 3rd party.

A few years ago the regulations were also relaxed a lot in regards to log
You used to have to "delegate" control operator responsibilties in writing,
most commonly accomplished by noting it in your log, and having the person
sign their name.  I don't see these changes as any relaxing of your
but merely making it easier and less of a hassle to perform them.

Placing a tracker in the hands of an unlicensed individual in my opinion is
originating 3rd party traffic, which is prohibited under automated control.

There are those that agree, and those that don't, and we'll likely never
come to a concensus.

Ray - WB3ABN
Kingston, WA
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <w2pi at optonline.net>
To: "TAPR APRS Mailing List" <aprssig at lists.tapr.org>
Cc: <kmcaviezel at global-western.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 11:44
Subject: Re: > Subject: Re: [aprssig] Transmitting data to a hot

> This has been covered here many times over the years... but here goes once
> Unattended (automatic control) transmission of one-way telemetry is
permitted under the US FCC amateur rules.
> With respect to one-way transmissions of weather information:
> 97.3(a)(45) defines "telemetry" as "a one-way transmission of measurements
at a distance from the measuring instrument."
> 97.111(b)(7) explicitly permits one-way transmission of telemetry
> As for unattended transmitters:
> 97.3(a)(6) defines automatic control as "The use of devices and procedures
for control of a station when it is transmitting so that complaince with the
FCC Rules is achieved without the control operator being present at a
control point."
> 97.109(d) states that "When a station is being automatically controlled,
the control operator need not be at the control point...Automatic control
must cease ipon notification by a District Dierector that the station is
transmitting improperly..."
> Under 97.221(b), "A station may be automatically controlled while
transmitting RTTY or data emissions on the 6 m or shorter wavelength
> I'm not a lawyer (and I don't play one on TV), but these rules tell me
> 1. Using an amateur radio transmitter to transmit weather data (or the
position of an aircraft, for that matter) is a permited one-way
transmission. (One way means there does not have to be an intended
> 2. It is permitted to build a tracker that has built in identification and
put it in a place or vehicle that is not attended by a licensed amateur, as
long as you can get to it and turn it off if it creates a problem.
> (flame resistant clothing on)
> 73,
> Paul W2PI
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Richard Amirault <ramirault at erols.com>
> Date: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:47 pm
> Subject: Re: > Subject: Re: [aprssig] Transmitting data to a hot
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "K. Mark Caviezel"
> > Subject: > Subject: Re: [aprssig] Transmitting data to a hot
> >
> >
> > >> From: "Richard Amirault" <ramirault at erols.com>
> > >> I assume you would be doing this on the ham bands.
> > >> Unless there is a ham
> > >> onboard the balloon I don't think that this would be
> > >> legal ...
> > >
> > >>>>> huh?  since when did you have to be a liscenced
> > > ham to listen ?
> >
> > The "listening" part is the part you deleted from the quote of my
> > message.
> > Hams are supposed to talk to other hams, not the general public,
> > aren't
> > they?  A ham transmission, be it voice, fast scan TV, data, or
> > whatever,  to
> > the general public at large is called 'broadcasting'  That's
> > against the
> > rules.   A transmission from a ham to a single, specific non-ham
> > is, as far
> > as I understand it, also against the rules .. THAT was the way the
> > original
> > question was phrased. (something to the effect of:  "I want to
> > transmit WX
> > data to a hot air baloon")
> >
> > Richard Amirault              N1JDU
> > Boston, MA, USA          Go Fly A Kite
> >
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> >
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