[Ham-80211] RE: ham-80211 Digest, Vol 29, Issue 1

Thu Jun 7 00:28:17 UTC 2007

There are two other things that can be important:

1. DECREASING bandwidth will provide as much gain as increasing power.
Reducing bandwidth by one-half provides 3 dB gain, the same as doubling
power. Go down to 1 mbps if you are not there.

2. Tree leaves are a horrid multipatrh generator. Some folks say that tree
leaves attenuate. Actually, the mode is multipath reflection. This provides
bith attenuation and phase changes. Not good.

Jim, W1EQO

Original Message:
-----------------
From:  ham-80211-request at lists.tapr.org
Date: Wed,  6 Jun 2007 10:13:25 -0400 (EDT)
To: ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org
Subject: ham-80211 Digest, Vol 29, Issue 1

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Today's Topics:

   1. WAP54  bridge  trouble (Larry)
   2. Re: WAP54  bridge  trouble (James R. Gorr)
   3. RE: WAP54  bridge  trouble (Juch Iii, Roy F (Fred Juch))
   4. Re: WAP54  bridge  trouble (Marlon K. Schafer)
   5. Re: WAP54  bridge  trouble (Joe S. Borovetz)
   6. RE: WAP54  bridge  trouble (Darryl Smith)
   7. Re: WAP54  bridge  trouble (Larry)
   8. RE: WAP54  bridge  trouble (Juch Iii, Roy F (Fred Juch))

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 14:20:39 -0400
From: Larry <schntv at adelphia.net>
Subject: [Ham-80211] WAP54  bridge  trouble
To: ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org
Message-ID: <4665A977.1000504 at adelphia.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

I am using 2- WAP54 with 24 DB antennas, in bridge mode, about 
half a mile apart. there are some trees in the path.
the system worked fine during the winter, and I am sure the 
leaves are a problem.
the strange thing I am questioning consens the fact they 
connect fine and will handle data for a few minutes then seem 
to loose contact.
if I wait half an hour the work again for a few minutes.
is there a setting I should change??
would an amplifier help?
I cant trim the trees, they are not mine.

thanks,
larry

-- 
Schneider TV & Electronic Inc.
5415 N. Wooster ave.
Dover, Ohio 44622       www.geocities.com/schntv2000/
330-343-0768         FCC. first class & Extra class K8WLY

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 12:16:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: "James R. Gorr" <n3toy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ham-80211] WAP54  bridge  trouble
To: "TAPR Mailing List for Ham Radio Use of 802.11"
	<ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org>
Message-ID: <424314.48739.qm at web54104.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Is it repetitive and predictable?  In other words,
after 5 minutes it "shut down" for 25 minutes then it
works again for 5 minutes...?  It almost sounds like
it could be a heat issue.  The transmitter heats up
and maybe a trace breaks contact or something.  It
does not sound like a setting (I assume you have not
made any changes to the nodes since the last time you
knew it to work).  The colder temps in the winter
could have kept the unit from over-heating, but now
the hotter, summertime temps are here and causing a
heat issue.

Jamie

--- Larry <schntv at adelphia.net> wrote:

> I am using 2- WAP54 with 24 DB antennas, in bridge
> mode, about 
> half a mile apart. there are some trees in the path.
> the system worked fine during the winter, and I am
> sure the 
> leaves are a problem.
> the strange thing I am questioning consens the fact
> they 
> connect fine and will handle data for a few minutes
> then seem 
> to loose contact.
> if I wait half an hour the work again for a few
> minutes.
> is there a setting I should change??
> would an amplifier help?
> I cant trim the trees, they are not mine.
> 
> thanks,
> larry
> 
> 
> -- 
> Schneider TV & Electronic Inc.
> 5415 N. Wooster ave.
> Dover, Ohio 44622      
> www.geocities.com/schntv2000/
> 330-343-0768         FCC. first class & Extra class
> K8WLY
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ham-80211 mailing list
> ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org
>
https://lists.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ham-80211
> 

____________________________________________________________________________
________
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who
knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. 
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 19:41:45 -0000
From: "Juch Iii, Roy F (Fred Juch)" <fred.juch at hp.com>
Subject: RE: [Ham-80211] WAP54  bridge  trouble
To: "TAPR Mailing List for Ham Radio Use of 802.11"
	<ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org>
Message-ID:
	<D5B52C9D10F16F42A15672171D144BE3FEF666 at G3W0637.americas.hpqcorp.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="US-ASCII"

This sounds to me like you have no link margin. The leaves raised the
link loss to a level too high to allow reliable communications. Yes
amplifiers will probably help. What you need to do is calculate the link
loss with the leaves, and either raise the antennas to remove this loss,
or increase the power to compensate. Power can be increased by using
bigger antennas, receive pre amps, or power amplifiers. You can use the
calculations on this web page:
http://www.wirelessconnections.net/calcs/calculations.asp I am not
associated with this page.

Fred Juch, N5JXO

-----Original Message-----
From: ham-80211-bounces at lists.tapr.org
[mailto:ham-80211-bounces at lists.tapr.org] On Behalf Of James R. Gorr
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 2:16 PM
To: TAPR Mailing List for Ham Radio Use of 802.11
Subject: Re: [Ham-80211] WAP54 bridge trouble

Is it repetitive and predictable?  In other words, after 5 minutes it
"shut down" for 25 minutes then it works again for 5 minutes...?  It
almost sounds like it could be a heat issue.  The transmitter heats up
and maybe a trace breaks contact or something.  It does not sound like a
setting (I assume you have not made any changes to the nodes since the
last time you knew it to work).  The colder temps in the winter could
have kept the unit from over-heating, but now the hotter, summertime
temps are here and causing a heat issue.

Jamie

--- Larry <schntv at adelphia.net> wrote:

> I am using 2- WAP54 with 24 DB antennas, in bridge mode, about half a 
> mile apart. there are some trees in the path.
> the system worked fine during the winter, and I am sure the leaves are

> a problem.
> the strange thing I am questioning consens the fact they connect fine 
> and will handle data for a few minutes then seem to loose contact.
> if I wait half an hour the work again for a few minutes.
> is there a setting I should change??
> would an amplifier help?
> I cant trim the trees, they are not mine.
> 
> thanks,
> larry
> 
> 
> --
> Schneider TV & Electronic Inc.
> 5415 N. Wooster ave.
> Dover, Ohio 44622      
> www.geocities.com/schntv2000/
> 330-343-0768         FCC. first class & Extra class
> K8WLY
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ham-80211 mailing list
> ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org
>
https://lists.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ham-80211
> 

________________________________________________________________________
____________
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who
knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. 
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433

_______________________________________________
ham-80211 mailing list
ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org
https://lists.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ham-80211

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 13:39:51 -0700
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <ooe at odessaoffice.com>
Subject: Re: [Ham-80211] WAP54  bridge  trouble
To: "TAPR Mailing List for Ham Radio Use of 802.11"
	<ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org>
Message-ID: <006401c7a7b1$ab8ea210$0375a8c0 at mlaptop2>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

One of the problems with using the consumer grade gear is that it gives 
crappy signal level indications.

For a wifi signal to work in b mode you normally only need about -80 to -85 
dB.  G mode will be closer to -65 to -70.

.5 miles with 24 dB grids is a LOT of power.  It's very likely you are 
picking up interference, multipath etc.

Here are a couple of tests to try.  Cross polarize your antennas.  See what 
happens.

Point one or both antennas 180* away from the other end of the link.

If any of these tests helps, you likely have too much power.  WiFi is
touchy 
that way sometimes.
marlon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Juch Iii, Roy F (Fred Juch)" <fred.juch at hp.com>
To: "TAPR Mailing List for Ham Radio Use of 802.11" 
<ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 12:41 PM
Subject: RE: [Ham-80211] WAP54 bridge trouble

This sounds to me like you have no link margin. The leaves raised the
link loss to a level too high to allow reliable communications. Yes
amplifiers will probably help. What you need to do is calculate the link
loss with the leaves, and either raise the antennas to remove this loss,
or increase the power to compensate. Power can be increased by using
bigger antennas, receive pre amps, or power amplifiers. You can use the
calculations on this web page:
http://www.wirelessconnections.net/calcs/calculations.asp I am not
associated with this page.

Fred Juch, N5JXO

-----Original Message-----
From: ham-80211-bounces at lists.tapr.org
[mailto:ham-80211-bounces at lists.tapr.org] On Behalf Of James R. Gorr
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 2:16 PM
To: TAPR Mailing List for Ham Radio Use of 802.11
Subject: Re: [Ham-80211] WAP54 bridge trouble

Is it repetitive and predictable?  In other words, after 5 minutes it
"shut down" for 25 minutes then it works again for 5 minutes...?  It
almost sounds like it could be a heat issue.  The transmitter heats up
and maybe a trace breaks contact or something.  It does not sound like a
setting (I assume you have not made any changes to the nodes since the
last time you knew it to work).  The colder temps in the winter could
have kept the unit from over-heating, but now the hotter, summertime
temps are here and causing a heat issue.

Jamie

--- Larry <schntv at adelphia.net> wrote:

> I am using 2- WAP54 with 24 DB antennas, in bridge mode, about half a
> mile apart. there are some trees in the path.
> the system worked fine during the winter, and I am sure the leaves are

> a problem.
> the strange thing I am questioning consens the fact they connect fine
> and will handle data for a few minutes then seem to loose contact.
> if I wait half an hour the work again for a few minutes.
> is there a setting I should change??
> would an amplifier help?
> I cant trim the trees, they are not mine.
>
> thanks,
> larry
>
>
> --
> Schneider TV & Electronic Inc.
> 5415 N. Wooster ave.
> Dover, Ohio 44622
> www.geocities.com/schntv2000/
> 330-343-0768         FCC. first class & Extra class
> K8WLY
>
> _______________________________________________
> ham-80211 mailing list
> ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org
>
https://lists.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ham-80211
>

________________________________________________________________________
____________
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who
knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433

_______________________________________________
ham-80211 mailing list
ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org
https://lists.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ham-80211

_______________________________________________
ham-80211 mailing list
ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org
https://lists.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ham-80211 

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 21:29:49 -0500
From: "Joe S. Borovetz" <wa5vms at tapr.org>
Subject: Re: [Ham-80211] WAP54  bridge  trouble
To: "TAPR Mailing List for Ham Radio Use of 802.11"
	<ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070605212426.046904d8 at tapr.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

The trees are the major problem. I have seen it happen time and again 
on 2.4 wireless LAN links......not using 802.11 but the same applies for
wi-fi.

I have a friend who did links for a major oil company and they 
confirmed time and again that trees and 2.4 do not mix. The same goes for
5.8.

Motorola Canopy which is usually reliable died in the presence of trees.

Joe

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:57:42 +1000
From: "Darryl Smith" <Darryl at radio-active.net.au>
Subject: RE: [Ham-80211] WAP54  bridge  trouble
To: "'TAPR Mailing List for Ham Radio Use of 802.11'"
	<ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org>
Message-ID: <01af01c7a7e6$736257d0$5a270770$@net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="US-ASCII"

If you look at the Wireless Design text books for Cellphone Networks - such
as the ones by C.Y.Lee you will find attenuation curves for Pine Forests.
The reason in this case is that the 850/900 MHz of many cellphones has a
quarter wave wavelength that is about equal to the average length of pine
needles. That is, the pine needles in a pine forest becomes an amazing set
of distributed dummy loads. 

I would imagine that leaves of most trees are much shorter providing more
absorption, and more reflections away too.

Darryl 

-----Original Message-----
From: ham-80211-bounces at lists.tapr.org
[mailto:ham-80211-bounces at lists.tapr.org] On Behalf Of Joe S. Borovetz
Sent: Wednesday, 6 June 2007 12:30 PM
To: TAPR Mailing List for Ham Radio Use of 802.11
Subject: Re: [Ham-80211] WAP54 bridge trouble

The trees are the major problem. I have seen it happen time and again 
on 2.4 wireless LAN links......not using 802.11 but the same applies for
wi-fi.

I have a friend who did links for a major oil company and they 
confirmed time and again that trees and 2.4 do not mix. The same goes for
5.8.

Motorola Canopy which is usually reliable died in the presence of trees.

Joe

_______________________________________________
ham-80211 mailing list
ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org
https://lists.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ham-80211

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:03:20 -0400
From: Larry <schntv at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: [Ham-80211] WAP54  bridge  trouble
To: "TAPR Mailing List for Ham Radio Use of 802.11"
	<ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org>
Message-ID: <4666BEA8.5060204 at adelphia.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

I agree it is probably the leaves, but it seemed strange how 
it will down load data for a few minutes than get lost.
then after a period, work for a few minutes again.
I was hoping there were some tweaking I could do to the WAP54 
setup.
also there are days it works perfect then maybe the rain or 
humidity changes and its gone.
As someone mentioned, it is a very strong link, if there were 
no trees. so I wonder if more power or more antenna gain would 
even help.
my antenna is up about 40 ft. but the neighbors trees are 
about 80 ft.
I cant afford to go that high as a test.
How can I tell if another station is blocking my signal.
I have tried different channels with little success.
how about even a microwave oven interfering?

I am considering buying an amp, I never used one, what would 
the group recommend?

thanks again,
larry

Schneider TV & Electronic Inc.
5415 N. Wooster ave.
Dover, Ohio 44622       www.geocities.com/schntv2000/
330-343-0768         FCC. first class & Extra class K8WLY

Joe S. Borovetz wrote:
> The trees are the major problem. I have seen it happen time and again on 
> 2.4 wireless LAN links......not using 802.11 but the same applies for 
> wi-fi.
> 
> I have a friend who did links for a major oil company and they confirmed 
> time and again that trees and 2.4 do not mix. The same goes for 5.8.
> 
> Motorola Canopy which is usually reliable died in the presence of trees.
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ham-80211 mailing list
> ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org
> https://lists.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ham-80211
> 
> 

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:10:10 -0000
From: "Juch Iii, Roy F (Fred Juch)" <fred.juch at hp.com>
Subject: RE: [Ham-80211] WAP54  bridge  trouble
To: "TAPR Mailing List for Ham Radio Use of 802.11"
	<ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org>
Message-ID:
	<D5B52C9D10F16F42A15672171D144BE3FEFAAC at G3W0637.americas.hpqcorp.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="US-ASCII"

Try setting the link to use 802.11B only. The units may be trying to go
to too high a modulation level for the interference to handle. A working
11 MB link is better than a non working 54 MB link. This would need to
be set on both ends.

Fred N5JXO 

-----Original Message-----
From: ham-80211-bounces at lists.tapr.org
[mailto:ham-80211-bounces at lists.tapr.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 9:03 AM
To: TAPR Mailing List for Ham Radio Use of 802.11
Subject: Re: [Ham-80211] WAP54 bridge trouble

I agree it is probably the leaves, but it seemed strange how it will
down load data for a few minutes than get lost.
then after a period, work for a few minutes again.
I was hoping there were some tweaking I could do to the WAP54 setup.
also there are days it works perfect then maybe the rain or humidity
changes and its gone.
As someone mentioned, it is a very strong link, if there were no trees.
so I wonder if more power or more antenna gain would even help.
my antenna is up about 40 ft. but the neighbors trees are about 80 ft.
I cant afford to go that high as a test.
How can I tell if another station is blocking my signal.
I have tried different channels with little success.
how about even a microwave oven interfering?

I am considering buying an amp, I never used one, what would the group
recommend?

thanks again,
larry

Schneider TV & Electronic Inc.
5415 N. Wooster ave.
Dover, Ohio 44622       www.geocities.com/schntv2000/
330-343-0768         FCC. first class & Extra class K8WLY

Joe S. Borovetz wrote:
> The trees are the major problem. I have seen it happen time and again 
> on
> 2.4 wireless LAN links......not using 802.11 but the same applies for 
> wi-fi.
> 
> I have a friend who did links for a major oil company and they 
> confirmed time and again that trees and 2.4 do not mix. The same goes
for 5.8.
> 
> Motorola Canopy which is usually reliable died in the presence of
trees.
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ham-80211 mailing list
> ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org
> https://lists.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ham-80211
> 
> 

_______________________________________________
ham-80211 mailing list
ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org
https://lists.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ham-80211

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
ham-80211 mailing list
ham-80211 at lists.tapr.org
https://lists.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ham-80211

End of ham-80211 Digest, Vol 29, Issue 1
****************************************

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