[linux] Re: Take a Stand

Wed Oct 13 02:07:09 UTC 2004

People

At the DCC, Phil Karn and I looked at the IPV6 stuff.

OK, The idea is that we have 48 bits to play with, if we want to reserve 16
for the padding that indicates the type of globally-unique address we're
working with.

The 64 bits can be split up in the following way.

	16 bits - IEEE Assigned
	1 bit - Globally Unique Field
	37 Bits - Callsign
	10 Bits - SSID

Now, callsigns are up to 7 alpha-numeric characters, meaning 37 bits. This
would mean that routing is based on Callsign. Except for the SSID. The SSID
can be used for local networks. 

You can also tunnel IPV6 in IPV4 or IPV6 itself allowing some strange
networks to be created.

Now all I need to do is get the 16 bits assigned from the IEEE and write up
a paper/RFC...

Darryl

---------
Darryl Smith, VK2TDS   POBox 169 Ingleburn NSW 2565 Australia
Mobile Number 0412 929 634 [+61 4 12 929 634 International] 
www.radio-active.net.au\blog\ - www.radio-active.net.au\web\tracking

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: RE: Take a Stand (Walt DuBose)
   2. Re: RE: Take a Stand (Don)
   3. Re: RE: Take a Stand (Gerry Creager n5jxs)
   4. Re: RE: Take a Stand (Eric S. Johansson)
   5. Re: RE: Take a Stand (James French W8ISS)
   6. Re: RE: Take a Stand (Bill Sinbine)
   7. Re: RE: Take a Stand (Jeff King)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 12:32:05 -0500
From: Walt DuBose <dubose at texas.net>
Subject: Re: [linux] RE: Take a Stand
To: TAPR Linux Mailing List <linux at lists.tapr.org>
Message-ID: <4166CF15.8010802 at texas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Darryl and all,

A group of pig thinks humans smell bad.

I believe that everyone in TAPR and many other hams know that 
TAPR believes that computers and open source are part of the TAPR 
banner...however, probably most hams only think of TAPR as the 
folks who brought "packet" to thye attention of hams or in many 
cases REALLY don't know what TAPR stands for or believes.

For this reason, I belive that TAPR should make every effort to 
publically and openly state that it believes that computers and 
related hardware and software are TODAY a most important part of 
amateur radio.

The same would apply to open source software and "programming" or 
at lease "hacking" code.

The things that are obvious to us (TAPR) just might not be 
obvious to the majority of the amateur radio community...I don't 
think we should make the assumption that everyone know what 
TAPR's position is on the place of computers is in amateur radio 
communications nor that we in fact are suporters of open source 
software.  The fact is that most hams don't even know what open 
source software is.

BTW, it was a great pleasure meeting you at the DCC.

73,

Walt/K5YFW

Darryl Smith wrote:
> Walt/K5YFW Commented... 
> 
> 
>>I think that TAPR is a perfect organization to take a couple of stands in 
>>Amateur Radio.
>>
>>First I think that someone, and it might as well be TAPR, should make it 
>>perfectly clear that the computer is a perfectly good and useful tool 
>>in the amateur radio tool kit...the computer today in amateur radio is 
>>as am important tool as the "bug" was to CW and amateur radio prior 
>>to WWII.
> 
>  
> I think that is fairly clear, or it should be, with our support of Gerald
> Younbloods SDR1000 Digital HF Radio, and soon to be the Vector Network
> Analyser.
> 
> Each of these uses a computer to do the main processing. Similarly the
> GNUradio stuff. 
> 
> 
>>Second, I believe that TAPR is the perfect promoter of open source
>>operating systems and amateur radio applications.  Unless more hams 
>>start using computers and "hacking" code, equivalent to hacking WWII 
>>surplus radio equipment, we will get lost in the technological expressway.
> 
>  
> YES.... Which is why we support the DCC each year. Which is why the VNC
code
> is Open Source. Which is why there will *ALWAYS* be VNC Open Source Code. 
> 
> 
>>Last, I think its important for someone to look at using IPv6 for amateur
>>radio use since so much of our data communications as well as VoIP can
>>and should use IP addresses.
> 
>  
> This last point is the most interesting... Phil Karn, KA9Q and I were
> discussing this at the DCC. I need to write everything up, but this has
> merit. I did some of this work at the dcc, and did find some interesting
> things out. 
> 
> But there are a few things that need to be done to make IPv6 usable in Ham
> Radio. 
> 
> Darryl
> 
> 
> ---------
> Darryl Smith, VK2TDS   POBox 169 Ingleburn NSW 2565 Australia
> Mobile Number 0412 929 634 [+61 4 12 929 634 International] 
> www.radio-active.net.au\blog\ - www.radio-active.net.au\web\tracking
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:05:47 -0700
From: Don <dwerts at pineknot.com>
Subject: Re: [linux] RE: Take a Stand
To: TAPR Linux Mailing List <linux at lists.tapr.org>
Message-ID: <200410081305.47256.dwerts at pineknot.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"

On Thursday 07 October 2004 13:57, Darryl Smith wrote:
> Walt/K5YFW Commented...
>
> >I think that TAPR is a perfect organization to take a couple of stands in
> >Amateur Radio.
> >
> >First I think that someone, and it might as well be TAPR, should make it
> >perfectly clear that the computer is a perfectly good and useful tool
> >in the amateur radio tool kit...the computer today in amateur radio is
> >as am important tool as the "bug" was to CW and amateur radio prior
> >to WWII.
>
> I think that is fairly clear, or it should be, with our support of Gerald
> Younbloods SDR1000 Digital HF Radio, and soon to be the Vector Network
> Analyser.
>
> Each of these uses a computer to do the main processing. Similarly the
> GNUradio stuff.
>
> >Second, I believe that TAPR is the perfect promoter of open source
> >operating systems and amateur radio applications.  Unless more hams
> >start using computers and "hacking" code, equivalent to hacking WWII
> >surplus radio equipment, we will get lost in the technological
expressway.
>
> YES.... Which is why we support the DCC each year. Which is why the VNC
> code is Open Source. Which is why there will *ALWAYS* be VNC Open Source
> Code.
>
> >Last, I think its important for someone to look at using IPv6 for amateur
> >radio use since so much of our data communications as well as VoIP can
> >and should use IP addresses.
>
> This last point is the most interesting... Phil Karn, KA9Q and I were
> discussing this at the DCC. I need to write everything up, but this has
> merit. I did some of this work at the dcc, and did find some interesting
> things out.
>
> But there are a few things that need to be done to make IPv6 usable in Ham
> Radio.
>
> Darryl
>
>
> ---------
> Darryl Smith, VK2TDS   POBox 169 Ingleburn NSW 2565 Australia
> Mobile Number 0412 929 634 [+61 4 12 929 634 International]
> www.radio-active.net.au\blog\ - www.radio-active.net.au\web\tracking
>
>Hmmm, now this is something I'd like to sink my teeth into!  What a fun 
project..
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> linux mailing list
> linux at lists.tapr.org
> https://lists.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux
>
>
> End of linux Digest, Vol 4, Issue 2
> ***********************************
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.tapr.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux

-- 
Don     N7NKJ		"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every
SuSE Linux 9.0		 assumption of authority.  It is hardly to strong to

			 say that the Constitution was made to guard the
people
			 against the dangers of good intentions.  There are
men
			 in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean
to 
			 govern.  They promise to be good masters, but they
			 mean to be masters."
						--Daniel Webster

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 16:36:19 -0500
From: Gerry Creager n5jxs <gerry.creager at tamu.edu>
Subject: Re: [linux] RE: Take a Stand
To: dwerts at pineknot.com, TAPR Linux Mailing List
	<linux at lists.tapr.org>
Message-ID: <41670853.2090309 at tamu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Apparently unknown to some, there are those of us working with Internet2 
to acquire an IPv6 address space for Amateur Radio and start the effort 
to do some implelentations.

The initial thought is to get a /48 block (first 48 bits of the 128-bit 
address reserved for prefix, then distribute /56's to networks/users 
with network aspirations.  reserving 56 bits of the remaining 72 for 
callsign encoding (as in, plain, readable ASCII) yields a 16-bit network 
space for playing.  That's equivalent to a Class-B in IPv4 terms. 
Should be enough for any individual for at least my foreseeable future, 
or for a club/ARES team or equiavelent to build out a metro network.

There are decided benefits already within the IPv6 mobility plans to 
accommodate home-node relay to alternately registered systems; multicast 
for directed point-to-multipoint dissemination, several other possibilities.

The work's started.  I've got to get a white paper on-track this weekend 
to Internet2 to go to the Abilene planning meeting.

73, gerry

Don wrote:
> On Thursday 07 October 2004 13:57, Darryl Smith wrote:
> 
>>Walt/K5YFW Commented...
>>
>>
>>>I think that TAPR is a perfect organization to take a couple of stands in
>>>Amateur Radio.
>>>
>>>First I think that someone, and it might as well be TAPR, should make it
>>>perfectly clear that the computer is a perfectly good and useful tool
>>>in the amateur radio tool kit...the computer today in amateur radio is
>>>as am important tool as the "bug" was to CW and amateur radio prior
>>>to WWII.
>>
>>I think that is fairly clear, or it should be, with our support of Gerald
>>Younbloods SDR1000 Digital HF Radio, and soon to be the Vector Network
>>Analyser.
>>
>>Each of these uses a computer to do the main processing. Similarly the
>>GNUradio stuff.
>>
>>
>>>Second, I believe that TAPR is the perfect promoter of open source
>>>operating systems and amateur radio applications.  Unless more hams
>>>start using computers and "hacking" code, equivalent to hacking WWII
>>>surplus radio equipment, we will get lost in the technological
expressway.
>>
>>YES.... Which is why we support the DCC each year. Which is why the VNC
>>code is Open Source. Which is why there will *ALWAYS* be VNC Open Source
>>Code.
>>
>>
>>>Last, I think its important for someone to look at using IPv6 for amateur
>>>radio use since so much of our data communications as well as VoIP can
>>>and should use IP addresses.
>>
>>This last point is the most interesting... Phil Karn, KA9Q and I were
>>discussing this at the DCC. I need to write everything up, but this has
>>merit. I did some of this work at the dcc, and did find some interesting
>>things out.
>>
>>But there are a few things that need to be done to make IPv6 usable in Ham
>>Radio.
>>
>>Darryl
>>
>>
>>---------
>>Darryl Smith, VK2TDS   POBox 169 Ingleburn NSW 2565 Australia
>>Mobile Number 0412 929 634 [+61 4 12 929 634 International]
>>www.radio-active.net.au\blog\ - www.radio-active.net.au\web\tracking
>>
>>Hmmm, now this is something I'd like to sink my teeth into!  What a fun 
> 
> project..
-- 
Gerry Creager -- gerry.creager at tamu.edu
Network Engineering -- AATLT, Texas A&M University	
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.458.4020
FAX:  979.847.8578 Pager:  979.228.0173
Office: 903A Eller Bldg, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 18:21:10 -0400
From: "Eric S. Johansson" <esj at harvee.org>
Subject: Re: [linux] RE: Take a Stand
To: TAPR Linux Mailing List <linux at lists.tapr.org>
Message-ID: <416712D6.80002 at harvee.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Gerry Creager n5jxs wrote:
> Apparently unknown to some, there are those of us working with Internet2 
> to acquire an IPv6 address space for Amateur Radio and start the effort 
> to do some implelentations.
> 
> The initial thought is to get a /48 block (first 48 bits of the 128-bit 
> address reserved for prefix, then distribute /56's to networks/users 
> with network aspirations.  reserving 56 bits of the remaining 72 for 
> callsign encoding (as in, plain, readable ASCII) yields a 16-bit network 
> space for playing.  That's equivalent to a Class-B in IPv4 terms. Should 
> be enough for any individual for at least my foreseeable future, or for 
> a club/ARES team or equiavelent to build out a metro network.
> 
> There are decided benefits already within the IPv6 mobility plans to 
> accommodate home-node relay to alternately registered systems; multicast 
> for directed point-to-multipoint dissemination, several other 
> possibilities.

while this is all very nice and I'm sure it's even useful, amateur radio 
is again missing opportunities.  For example:

http://www.cuwireless.net/news/index.html

IDRC Funds Project To Teach Wireless Technologists In Africa - July 3, 2004
Following attendance at a European wireless conference, the 
Champaign-Urbana Community Wireless Network (CUWiN) worked closely with 
the Association for Progressive Communications, Ecole Supc)2eure 
Multinationale des Tc),communications, and wire.less.dk, a Dutch wireless 
consulting company, to draft a proposal designed to educate wireless 
implementers in Africa. The International Development Research Centre 
(IDRC) has funded the proposal for $225,000 US over the period from July 
2004 to June 2006.
Read more...

------

in order to gain any sort of mind share and experimentation 
possibilities again, you need to have a mission and a method.  For 
example in my astronomy efforts, I'm helping my club put together a 
control system a very nice planetary telescope.  What other members 
started going wild over a go to control system design, I had to remind 
people that the primary mission for the schupman visual and photographic 
observations of plants and the moon which are all easily found.  As a 
result, we're now designing a simple tracking system with limited 
slewing capability.

How does this apply to amateur radio?  Well, in order to have a network, 
we need a mission and a method.  So far, all are doing is coming up with 
methods that are typically embarrassingly bad compared to commercial 
offerings (i.e. packet radio).  But even with a 9600 baud network, we 
barely have enough data to fill that.

I have two suggestions for missions:

1) affinity focused spotting networks.

DX clusters are quite fascinating from a psychological perspective and 
in terms of being able to let people know what's on the air and where. 
But what if you could have a spotting network of your friends?  Or of 
other users of a common mode such as MFSK16?  by seeing that other users 
are out there of your mode would probably encourage more usage on that 
mode because you could find someone to talk to.

2) virtual repeaters.

we are all acquainted with how the current generation of repeaters 
operate, how they have limited range and how you frequently cannot get a 
contact on a repeater except during rush hour or before a club meeting.

we have started first generation virtual repeaters with echolink and 
other voice over IP tools where one can connect and form a two (or 
sometimes more) node virtual repeater.

Like a first generation virtual repeaters, the Next Generation virtual 
repeaters would be linked via TCP wireless and wired VoIP links.  But 
unlike the first generation, commercial repeaters are a mesh of nodes 
with dynamic node insertion/deletion.

but what makes the Next Generation virtual repeater architecture 
different is the modifications to the radio or user terminal.  No longer 
a simple frequency display and microphone, each user terminal displays 
information about the network, who is connected and what conversations 
are going on.  No longer would you need to hunt for machine to machine 
calling for a contact, simply putting out a request for contact would 
alert all user terminals connected to the network.  If you saw someone 
you needed to speak with on the network, you could connect with them 
directly.

Conceptually the user interface model is very similar to a buddy list on 
an instant messenger client.  The differences being the ability to 
signal an entire group and drop into and out of group conversations.

there are two benefits to heading in this direction.  First is that it 
moves us away from the "glorify taxi radio" world and gives us a more 
modern/technically astute infrastructure.  Second, it gives us an 
emergency infrastructure.  We can drop off all of the VoIP traffic, run 
standard SMTP and now we can carry emergency messages with the same 
infrastructure we were using day-to-day.  that way, our infrastructure 
is tested and ready for disasters which would increase confidence of 
emergency personnel that we can do what we say we can do

the idea is kind of rough but it's worth considering.

method ideas:

sound card modems revolutionized HF digital data transmission.  I 
believe we could use the equivalent concepts to revolutionize VHF data 
transmission if we had a relatively inexpensive "soundcard" capable of 
filling 100 kHz+ of spectrum and a simple transverter for 200 mhz on up.

inexpensive relatively high-speed medium distance data transmission 
would help keep amateur radio attract folks unsatisfied by the 
limitations of part 15.

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 19:28:25 -0400
From: James French W8ISS <w8iss at wideopenwest.com>
Subject: Re: [linux] RE: Take a Stand
To: TAPR Linux Mailing List <linux at lists.tapr.org>
Message-ID: <41672299.6060400 at wideopenwest.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

OK....

Maybe I'm missing the point here or maybe not.

What little I understand about the new IPv6 address structure is
that it will give more addresses for usage.

What is wrong with what we do have under the older APMERnet addresses?
Don't we still have plenty of room there to do what we want to do and assign
one to each and every ham in the world based on them being licensed?

James W8ISS

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 19:40:51 -0400
From: Bill Sinbine <n4xeo at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [linux] RE: Take a Stand
To: TAPR Linux Mailing List <linux at lists.tapr.org>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041008193822.01d9ade8 at mail.bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 07:28 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote:
>OK....
>
>Maybe I'm missing the point here or maybe not.
>
>What little I understand about the new IPv6 address structure is
>that it will give more addresses for usage.
>
>What is wrong with what we do have under the older APMERnet addresses?
>Don't we still have plenty of room there to do what we want to do and
assign
>one to each and every ham in the world based on them being licensed?
>
>James W8ISS

Is the amprnet addresses still in use?????  I have one and haven't been 
able to use it in years or get any information on it. Yes there are plenty 
of addresses to use but several of us can't figure how to use them any
more!!!
  When you go to the web site it is still there but way out of date!!!

Think about it .....
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

Bill Sinbine
n4xeo at bellsouth.net 

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 21:35:15 -0400
From: Jeff King <jeff at aerodata.net>
Subject: Re: [linux] RE: Take a Stand
To: TAPR Linux Mailing List <linux at lists.tapr.org>
Message-ID: <2004108213515.065121 at DARLA>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Kinda tells ya something there....

We have 10's of thousands of 44 ampr net addresses we are not using...and my

guess 95% of the assigned ones are currently unused.

Now, there might be good reasons to get a IPv6 block, but at this point in 
time it most certainly has little to do with hams actually running tcp/ip 
over radio. And I'm not even sure there is a need for this, as from a
routing 
perspective, it sure doesn't make any sense, assuming you still linked into 
the internet proper. 

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 19:28:25 -0400, James French W8ISS wrote:
>OK....
>
>Maybe I'm missing the point here or maybe not.
>
>What little I understand about the new IPv6 address structure is
>that it will give more addresses for usage.
>
>What is wrong with what we do have under the older APMERnet
>addresses? Don't we still have plenty of room there to do what we
>want to do and assign one to each and every ham in the world based
>on them being licensed?
>
>James W8ISS
>
>
>_______________________________________________ linux mailing list
>linux at lists.tapr.org https://lists.tapr.org/cgi-
>bin/mailman/listinfo/linux

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